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I like it. I asked a real question and got some decently thought-out answers. I answered a few as well, so at least I know it's not 100% AI responses!

Maybe the system itself is not using AI to create answers, but most lazy users probably will ask a LLM and post the result as their answers. So we get AI slop anyway.

At some point computers need to stop being treated as magical boxes that no reasonable person can learn how to use safely. We expect people who use cars to learn how to use them safely, we expect people who use lawnmowers to not stick their fingers in them. Computers have been a part of daily life for normies for decades at this point, it's infantilizing to suggest that average, non-tech savvy people can't learn to use (not necessarily build, repair, etc.) them properly and need to be protected from them.

People have to successfully get through a state exam in order to drive cars in first place, can be jailed, get fined when not driving them safely, or forbidden for life to ever drive again.

People that accidentality cut their fingers in lawnmowers due to lack of safety features are allowed to sue the lawnmower company.

What I would agree is that it is about time computing gets the same liability laws that the rest of the world already has in place and no EULAs that work around local laws should be considered valid in any form or shape.


Do you hate open source and want only projects where their authors can afford liability insurance and are willing to put themselves in the firing line of a legal system that can be both arbitrary and capricious? Because that’s what you seem to want.

Even people selling on the street or doing charity work have to account for liability of their actions.

Lets stop talking about open source as special snowflakes where everything is excused.


And that’s how you prevent bake sales, lemonade stands, and more. You create a barrier to entry that gets raised little by little until only the biggest players can afford the game. Software liability would end all small open source projects.

Bake sales and lemonade stands are perfectly fine as long as people don't land on hospital urgency, due to careless work on preparing them with spoiled ingredients or lack of hygiene.

Lets strive for quality in software.


Now do that again without careless work or spoiled ingredients. Do you still want them punished or facing so much regulation they can't exist? Because you'll definitely get that with software; even really good development will have flaws, and single flaws can lead to a thousand or million hacks.

All humans face scrutiny in their interactions with others.

Software only got this bad, because we educated users broken tools are acceptable and fixable with computer reboots and anti-virus.


I dunno, people seem to accept most kinds of tool being fussy or flaky.

But the special thing about security flaws is that they turn a one in a billion error into a guaranteed attack. It's moderately hard to make something that doesn't feel buggy, but ridiculously hard to be secure. If you hold to the standards of a bake sale it's the former. If you want full security then nobody releases anything outside very strict contracts.


Thankfully industry is changing,

- https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32...

- https://www.nsa.gov/Press-Room/News-Highlights/Article/Artic...

And I could keep listing several other world regions.


The problem is it's literally speech. Selling something isn't speech, you do not have the right to do charity work or run a business. It goes even beyond speech, it's closer to pure math/logic and I feel very uncomfortable about regulating that. I also think it's literally impossible.

Speech is subject to laws in most jurisdictions.

On power tools, appliances, etc. the safety features are at the user's latitude to bypass. They are usually a hint (don't microwave your dog), not a hard barrier ("I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that"). A spinning blade is covered by a grill you can trivially remove without permission from anyone.

I agree that the defaults should be secure, but you can't force security on people without creating parallel issues which are maybe worse. Centralizing this power in a single point can have orders of magnitude bigger blast radius than a security failure on an app.

At some point users have to take responsibility and be accountable for their actions. We can't just infantilize them forever as if a magical hand will always be over them protecting and having their best interest in mind. And we certainly shouldn't punish every user for the sake of some of them.

The worst part is that Google gets the benefit of putting itself as the central point of control over the ecosystem based on a promise to keep users safe, but without any of the liability from failing to keep that promise. When the app store is chock full of malware I'm really starting to suspect that their goal is actually only the control. And all those people defending it with "but people don't know better, they need a hand to guide them" were equally misled. What do you think?


Yes, and when they fail to do so, there are laws in place for liability of third party, or when their own irresponsible actions affects others.

>People that accidentality cut their fingers in lawnmowers due to lack of safety features are allowed to sue the lawnmower company.

Anyone is allowed to sue the lawnmower company. Did they win?


The amount of "Do not put hands here" labels I've seen on lawnmowers would suggest that, yes, someone did sue and win (or at the least got a settlement) and thus the lawyers forced the companies to put disclaimers and warnings on the lawnmower, directly on the top of the deck in plain sight.

Using a computer wrong doesn't kill people.

Yes and no.

The computer itself won't really do anything. But I'm sure suicides go up when people lose all their money, or get personal private details leaked, and so on.



> "One [software fault] was when the operator incorrectly selected X-ray mode then in 8 seconds quickly changing to electron mode, which allowed the electron beam to be set for X-ray mode without the X-ray target being in place"

Therac-25 is an important software-development case study but a torturous stretch of "Using a computer wrong"


You are right! Computer use should be taught, tested and licensed exactly the same way of steering several tons of metal at 70mph are!

Depends on what those computers are responsible for.

I'm sure you can think of many examples where it does though.

Well, computers first stop being magical machines that no person can learn how to use safely, then.

And, honestly, if you think the endpoint safety problem doesn't apply to you, you are part of the problem.


The endpoint safety problem obviously applies to me and every person connected to the World Wide Web, but the grandparent was talking about The Olds who install the AskJeeves and the Yahoo! toolbars and Bonzi Buddy and...

If computers aren't safe enough that a reasonably competent user, who doesn't open random files they found online and obvious spear-phishing emails, can't use one without losing their 401k, then maybe we need to just reevaluate modern life and go back to bank tellers.


A/I collective is not being accused of that, but of hosting information and providing communications services.


If I vet Al Qaida members on my platform, provide them services, continue to do it after several bombings, and keep their unencrypted mails and host their websites, I'm quite sure that I can be considered as an accomplice.


When are the executives of Twitter, Facebook, Google, being charged with these crimes? Any minute now?


Facebook was funded by Thiel, launched the day after DARPA shut down digital LifeLog and has long standing connections to intelligence agencies. Twitter is owned by the world's largest defense contractor.

These are government agencies acting as private entities.



It is not an American provider section 230 doesn't apply here.


Copy-pasting my comment to the other poster making the same point:

"Antifa" is not being presented as an ideology, it is being portrayed as a global terror cell. The specific purpose for this is to be able criminalize leftist politics, since the state has many more tools to prevent association with foreign groups.

"Nazi" does not have a leader, but the Nazi party had a leader. Atomwaffen had a leader. Various III% groups have leaders. Strangely, these groups are not being linked to foreign right-wing groups in an attempt to make them illegal.


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With respect, this is false. JDL members were certainly charged with crimes. They were not charged with belongimg to the JDL, since that would be a first amendment violation.

There are interesting reports on state.gov describing the difficulties the JDL caused with the Soviet Union, eg.:

https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1969-76v13...

Note that at no point do they discuss banning the JDL or charging members with belonging to the JDL.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_League

Ok maybe I'm wrong or there is some subtle legalese but the wikipedia page states that "it was described as a "right-wing terrorist group" by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) in 2001".


Being part of a domestic terrorist group is protected by the first amendment in the United States. Being part of a foreign terrorist group is not. You can pay dues to the KKK, you cannot donate to Hezbollah.


There was a national Communist Party as well as several Cominterns. Communists are pretty big on democratic centralism.


"Several cominterns" - each country had its communist party, meaning a certain level of decentralization.


"Comintern" means "Communist International"--meant to guide the various national parties.


Besides, I don’t usually think of individual national governments as the proper level at which something qualifies as decentralized.


"Antifa" is not being presented as an ideology, it is being portrayed as a global terror cell. The specific purpose for this is to be able criminalize leftist politics, since the state has many more tools to prevent association with foreign groups.

"Nazi" does not have a leader, but the Nazi party had a leader. Atomwaffen had a leader. Various III% groups have leaders. Strangely, these groups are not being linked to foreign right-wing groups in an attempt to make them illegal.


[flagged]


European politics are very different than American politics, and I am not terribly familiar with them so I won't weigh in.

Antifa in the US is "guys with a Signal group chat who do black bloc stuff."


Black block stuff is akin to terrorism or at least political violence.


You're not wrong about smoke always being bad--there's a reason American Spirits have to have a disclaimer about "additive-free" not meaning healthier. Tobacco takes up alpha emitters from the soil and leaves them in your body--never good.

Pipe and cigar smokers are much less likely to smoke a pack's worth of tobacco a day. You also don't inhale them into your lungs, you hold the smoke in your mouth.

Smoking cigarettes is less about getting nicotine and more about having something to do when you are stressed etc.


Fun fact: the stress that smoking cigarettes relieves is only the stress caused by the addiction/relapse from nicotine. Surely, there might be some placebo effects going on, but nicotine is not a stress relieving chemical.

So really it is just about getting nicotine, but over time the ritual around the addiction adds to the addiction.


True, but I am vaguely aware of people taking like Zyn for performance enhancement reasons, and I don't think anyone starts smoking like that.


Zyn is freebase nicotine which does show some signs of being performance enhancing; mostly around focus. There are a lot of people with unmedicated ADHD self-medicating with Zyn, or vapes, or smoking due to the this.


Well, I suppose less radiation could be one of the advantages of a crack habit


Super Cannes should be a perfect place to start for anyone reading this site.


You already know the answer to that question


Damn, and I just bought a used Garmin hybrid watch, too.


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