You can purchase a mineral salt-rock crystal (it's a smooth solid peace of salt, about as cheap as it gets) "de-odorant" that you wet and apply, it leaves nothing behind except an undetectable amount of salt on the skin. That is ... no chemicals, no fragrances, nothing but salt.
That salt kills-off the bacteria that are responsible for odor (through various means, directly and indirectly).
After a week or two of this, you're done. Your sweat lessens, and becomes clear and odorless.
No more deodorant is required after this. Just shower and apply some soap to your skin.
The bigger story here is that advertisers have convinced you that their more expensive "formulas" are required, and there are no good alternatives.
Their products are specifically designed not to kill-off the bacteria, and hence to keep you purchasing the product.
They do this because you can't make money selling a $1 peace of salt-rock that lasts the customer a life-time.
The "rock crystal" you're using contains either potassium alum or ammonium alum, both of which are both chemicals (so for that matter is water and everything else).
And FYI, aluminium chlorohydrate (one of the "harsh chemicals" that Crystal-brand deodorant claims not to contain) is also a salt, and indeed used in water purification just like the alums. I believe that aluminum zirconium tetrachlorohydrex gly is also a salt (or rather contains a salt), but I'm not certain.
All the major antiperspirants and deodorants are aluminum-based.
> After a week or two of this, you're done. Your sweat lessens, and becomes clear and odorless.
> No more deodorant is required after this. Just shower and apply some soap to your skin.
This is not a claim that Crystal makes. They specifically indicate that their rock lasts about a year. They don't even claim that it has antiperspirant qualities, just deodorant qualities.
There is no magic salt that you can rub on your skin for a week that stops you from sweating and smelling indefinitely.
> Their products are specifically designed not to kill the bacteria, and hence to keep you purchasing the product.
This is ridiculous conspiracy theory. Their products are designed to stop people from smelling. No one is sitting around twisting their mustache and creating deodorants and antiperspirants that specifically protect underarm bacteria.
You're also covered in bacteria. Even if Crystal managed to kill all the bacteria under your arms, it would be back the next day. If sanitizing your underarms was sufficient to get rid of odor and sweat indefinitely, then a big iodine swab would do the job faster and even cheaper.
It's also a claim I've made based on personal experience with both "mineral salt crystals" (alum - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alum) and regular deodorant, and knowing the ingredients in both and how those ingredients affect bacteria.
> even if Crystal managed to kill all the bacteria under your arms, it would be back the next day.
One killed off all odor causing bacteria after a few weeks (I no longer have to use it, maybe once a week). The other just kept it masked even after YEARS of use. I'll let you guess which one that was.
> No one is sitting around twisting their mustache and creating deodorants and antiperspirants that specifically protect underarm bacteria.
No, they just don't put the same amount of alum in their products to make it effective. Their game is to mask the odor, and not to prevent it from happening again. LTV of customer is the #1 metric in business.
> a big iodine swab would do the job faster and even cheaper.
But notably not that one. And their claims specifically contradict yours.
> It's also a claim I've made based on personal experience with both "mineral salt crystals" (alum - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alum) and regular deodorant, and knowing the ingredients in both and how those ingredients affect bacteria.
You can make whatever claims you want. That doesn't make them valid. Lots of people have "personal experiences" with homeopathic medicine and are convinced of its efficacy. That doesn't mean they're correct.
I also question how much you actually know about how the ingredients in various deodorants affect bacteria.
> One killed off all odor causing bacteria after a few weeks (I no longer have to use it, maybe once a week).
No, it didn't. Are you really under the belief that those "odor causing bacteria" existed only on your armpits? That they don't exist on the skin around your armpits, or you know, all over your body? That they couldn't and wouldn't simply spread back to your armpits if you managed to kill them off there?
I also hate to break the news to you, but there's a pretty good chance that you're smelly and just don't know it, because over the course of "a few weeks", you trained yourself not to notice it.
> No, they just don't put the same amount of alum in their products to make it effective.
Many of them don't use alum at all, because other ingredients are known to work better, especially for people who also want antiperspirant effects.
> Their game is to mask the odor
Masking the odor would mean covering up. Alum, aluminium chlorohydrate, and aluminum zirconium tetrachlorohydrex gly don't have any significant smell of their own. Indeed, you can buy unscented deodorants from the major manufacturers, and they are exactly as effective as the scented ones.
You seem to be replacing my own experience, and that of the people that alum rocks have worked for, with your own lack of it.?
> with homeopathic medicine and are convinced of its efficacy. That doesn't mean they're correct.
I don't see how that's even remotely a valid comparison. There is nothing homeopathic about alum crystals.
> That they couldn't and wouldn't simply spread back to your armpits if you managed to kill them off there?
Then why didn't they spread and colonize the next day, as you have claimed they would? Ohh, you've already explained that away.
My skin is not my armpits. The other areas don't have the same temperature, humidity, and sweat. Those areas don't have and breed bacteria like armpits do. And it takes time for the bacteria to spread, multiply, and get below the surface. Once you've eliminated an area, it's going to be a while, regardless of the small amounts of bacteria on other areas.
> Indeed, you can buy unscented deodorants from the major manufacturers, and they are exactly as effective as the scented ones.
I have no idea what you're trying to convince me of. That I'm a crazy homeopathic guy with no sense of smell, covered in massive colonies of armpit-smelling highly-mobile bacteria that spreads like a fire? You might as well claim I'm a paid shill for the product.
> You seem to be replacing my own experience, and that of the people that alum rocks have worked for, with your own lack of it.?
No, I'm saying that your claims are so outlandish that even the manufacturers of alum rocks don't support them.
> I don't see how that's even remotely a valid comparison. There is nothing homeopathic about alum crystals.
Maybe it'd be clearer if I used the word placebo.
> Then why didn't they spread and colonize the next day, as you have claimed they would? Ohh, you've already explained that away.
They do, which is why a good scrubbing with antibacterial soap doesn't make them disappear forever.
> My skin is not my armpits. The other areas don't have the same temperature, humidity, and sweat. Those areas don't have and breed bacteria like armpits do. And it takes time for the bacteria to spread, multiply, and get below the surface. Once you've eliminated an area, it's going to be a while, regardless of the small amounts of bacteria on other areas.
You drastically underestimate how much bacteria is on the rest of your body, and how quickly those bacteria spread and multiply.
Potassium alum is an astringent/styptic and antiseptic. For this reason, it can be used as a natural deodorant by inhibiting the growth of the bacteria responsible for body odor.
How Does Crystal Body Deodorant Work? Odor is caused by bacteria that form on the body. Natural mineral salts form a barrier on the skin that creates a very unfriendly environment for these bacteria.
> You drastically underestimate...
All I have to say is try it for yourself.
Unless you think you're an expert on under-arm bacteria and odor... Which is odd concidering you work for Microsoft.
The placebo effect I refer to is not the short-term deodorizing behavior. It's the antiperspirant effect and especially the long-term effects that you're claiming. These are not supported by the company manufacturing the product, and I'm not aware of any evidence for these effects aside from your claims. If you have some evidence that doesn't involve blindly trusting you, then by all means share it.
Mate, you're off base here. I use one of these crystals, and they work for me. I had tried everything, and I used to smell bad by the end of the day, on multi day camping trips I would be brutal.
A friend of mine was raving about the crystal ("smell my armpits, they are odorless", etc etc) so I tried it....after a few days, voila, odors gone. I'll start smelling some by noon the next day if I don't shower, but otherwise I'm good.
Placebo you say...well, it's a damn good one, because it has fooled not only me, but my close friends who always used to playfully razz me.
However, it seems not to work for everyone, or at least, some people I know who've tried it say it didn't work for them.
I'm not saying that the crystal is ineffective as a deodorant. I'm saying that it does not have the properties that powertower is claiming. Namely, short-term ("a few weeks") use does not have long-term ("a lifetime") antibacterial and antiperspirant effects.
If you use it in the morning and it makes you smell better for the rest of the day, then yes, that's the expected effect (and I'm happy that it works for you). If you use it for a couple of weeks and then think you're smell- and sweat-free for years, then you're delusional.
> Namely, short-term ("a few weeks") use does not have long-term ("a lifetime") antibacterial and antiperspirant effects.
There are a couple of sentences that I didn't do a very good job with delivering here, but you're reading into it too much.
I don't claim that 1) it has any type of significant antiperspirant effect (just that it did seem to help a little via perhaps a secondary effect) and 2) it has long term effects after you completely stop using it (just that now I don't need to use it as consistently as before).
Maybe I was a bit overzealous delivering some of that in a few posts here.
My only real claim is that it works for me, and others, better than the regular stuff.
> I don't claim that ... 2) it has long term effects after you completely stop using it (just that now I don't need to use it as consistently as before).
Well, no.
You said..
> After a week or two of this, you're done. Your sweat lessens, and becomes clear and odorless.
> No more deodorant is required after this. Just shower and apply some soap to your skin.
You're quite clear in claiming that after a few weeks of the salt rock, you don't need to use it, or any other.
That said, I use this stuff too because my armpit skin is sensitive to certain deodorants and gets red and itchy if I use them. So I switch to the crystal brand for a few weeks, and it works, but it definitely does not confer any more effect than any other deodorant. I have to apply it daily, like any other.
If you read the posts right after it, you'll notice I've clarified it a few times. Not that the original statement is false for me.
Personally, I don't need to use the alum-salts anymore. Once the bacteria is "gone" (okay... reduced to the lower, natural levels), it's just a matter of using soap and nothing else for me. It's a sign of good health, but your results may vary.
The notion that bacteria #s comes back (in a few days) to the same over-realized levels that you've grown over the previous 20+ years is ridiculous. You have natural balanced levels and types, that get augmented over time via lack of proper management.
Once you kill off the extras, those #s get back to lower natural levels which are manageable by other means (soap during shower). As long as you manage those #s, they stay leveled.
Maybe we're just different. Maybe we're in different environments. Etc.
> Then why didn't they spread and colonize the next day, as you have claimed they would?
They do. Armpits are smelly because the sweat glands there excrete bacterial nutrients designed to feed smelly bacteria. Aluminum compounds plug the outlet of the sweat glands, choking off the supply of nutrients. The plugs last for days.
> Once you've eliminated an area, it's going to be a while, regardless of the small amounts of bacteria on other areas.
The other areas have 1 million bacteria per square centimeter that are easily spread, and a population doubling time of around 20 minutes in a favorable area like a damp armpit. Run the numbers on geometric growth at that rate. Even if you reduce bacterial density by 99.99%, they will be back in a few hours.
If you drop that piece of salt rock it breaks, as does the container holding it. Even if you don't drop it, it doesn't last forever, nor does sweat become "odorless" after "a week or two" of using it. (I've used Crystal off and on).
My suspicion is that you just aren't prone to sweat very much, or can't smell yourself. Did you notice that the salt rock itself smells bad once you've ever used it, whereas sticks don't?
I'm willing to concede the possibility that it works as you describe for you, but your experience isn't universal. It didn't work that way at all for me; I went back to mostly using the sticks because the salt rock didn't work very well.
Though when you say "just shower and apply some soap to your skin", that could work if you were using a deodorant soap. :-)
> Did you notice that the salt rock itself smells bad once you've ever used it, whereas sticks don't?
Never. You would always put it under a stream before (to moisten up a layer) and after you use it (to clean it). And only after you've showered and washed with soap first.
It sounds to me like people are not using it correctly and consistently, are mixing it with regular deodorant, or have very extensive bacterial colonies on skin and transdermally.
It sounds to me like people are not using it correctly and consistently, are mixing it with regular deodorant, or have very extensive bacterial colonies on skin and transdermally.
AKA no true Scotsman. You are doing a great job of speaking in patterns used by advocates of homeopathy and spiritualism.
Sorry, but incorrect usage resulting in diminished or no effect is not a true Scotsman fallacy component. Or do you claim that antibiotics are also homeopathy and spiritualism?
Similar, claims of does not work under all conditions are not the hallmark of a true Scotsman fallacy, otherwise tylenol should be considered homeopathy and spiritualism, since it doesn't work for certain types of pain, or certain levels of pain.
Incorrect accusations of fallacy indicate personal vendetta. What is your problem?
Or do you claim that antibiotics are also homeopathy and spiritualism?
Non sequitur/strawman/slippery slope.
What is your problem?
Ad hominem.
Did you read the rest of the thread? I'll concede that my specific quotation does not, in isolation, appear to be a "No True Scotsmen" fallacy, but considered with the rest of the crystalline deodorant alternative thread, and with spritualist arguments in the form of "It doesn't work if you have unrepented sin/if you don't pray hard enough/maybe you need to fast longer/maybe it's just not God's will", my comment makes more sense.
> in the form of "It doesn't work if you have unrepented sin/if you don't pray hard enough/maybe you need to fast longer/maybe it's just not God's will"
You might be confusing that I've said you have to do 1, 2, 3 while using this product, for random, mystical, steps.
The reason you wash up first is because the alum salts have no effect on the odor substances/chemicals already on your skin (and what permeated below the surface).
The reason you use the product consistently is because it takes time for the salts to kill-off the bacteria (to permeate in and below the skin) and to help eliminate the odor.
The reason you don't use regular deodorant while you use this is because it just makes it so much harder for it to make the proper and consistent contact with the skin.
The reason why it doesn't work so quickly if the person has massive bacteria colonies, or dosn't give it a proper go, etc, well, you should be able to figure that one out yourself.
At no point is spirituality, god, or homeopathy claimed here.
Potassium alum is an astringent/styptic and antiseptic. For this reason, it can be used as a natural deodorant by inhibiting the growth of the bacteria responsible for body odor.
They are already an ingredient in the deodorants that you use, and have known effects.
With one of these "crystals", mineral rocks, stones, whatever you want to call it, you're getting the above in it's more potent amount.
Or do you claim that antibiotics are also homeopathy and spiritualism?
Non sequitur/strawman/slippery slope.
Nope. Not a non-sequitur because it also fits the themes of:
a) items which must be used as directed otherwise results are lessened or negated, b) affect bacteria in relation to the human body and c) could be claimed as magic/voodoo by your exact argument.
Not a strawman, because most other medical chemicals must be used as directed, and are not dismissed as homeopathy as a result of this. Your argument must be taken as given, not as you wish it to be applied.
Not a slippery slope, because I am not arguing we must take tylenol and antibiotics to be homeopathy if this crystaline deodorant is also homeopathy, nor am I arguing cascading results of one declaration of the other. A comparison of like things does not constitute a slippery slope.
* What is your problem?
Ad hominem.*
Again, no - and ad hominem attack would be for me to state "you have a problem with the deodorant, therefore your statements are wrong or untrustworthy". I did nothing of the sort. I merely asked why you have a problem with the stuff after otherwise dismantling your argument.
Did you read the rest of the thread? I'll concede that my specific quotation does not, in isolation, appear to be a "No True Scotsmen" fallacy, but considered with the rest of the crystalline deodorant alternative thread, and with spritualist arguments in the form of "It doesn't work if you have unrepented sin/if you don't pray hard enough/maybe you need to fast longer/maybe it's just not God's will", my comment makes more sense
By my reading the rest of the thread is by many other commenters, some state the stuff works for them, some state it doesn't. Some claim you have to use it right, and without things that are claimed to be confounding. They aren't religious arguments, they may be incorrect arguments, I don't have the understanding of it. Some commenters seem to be a bit more hand-wavey than others. Some simply state they only get results when the salts are applied to clean skin, and in absence of other product, and may take a couple weeks to become effective. That seems reasonable to me for a number of reasons.
Some of the claims that seem overzealous such as "never needs to be applied again" are a bit much, but that same guy later says "never needs to be applied again, maybe once a week". Such a statement could be religious addling, or could be the result of a non-native English speaker having a problem with correct phrasing or translating an idiom.
Point being, your claims are unwarranted, and are fairly judgmental in a way that is more "anti homeopathy/religious" than anything that is fact based. Your claims of religiosity only really work if you twist some of the stuff said hard, and pretend multiple posters are one person.
It's ammonium alum or potassium alum. Sometimes derisively called "hippie deodorant." It is not an antiperspirant. There are all sorts of alternatives that people use as deodorants, including lemon juice, baking soda, and tea oils.
The above is my personal experience, with absolute-zero story exaggeration. Though how long you'll need to apply the salt may vary (and how frequent you'll use it).
I don't have a preference for any brand (it's all the same) but here is what I have now: http://www.thecrystal.com/
You should be able to buy these in any good organic food and health store.
What's the mineral in "the crystal?" It's almost certainly an aluminum salt, but I can't find the active ingredient? The FAQ says "Do Crystal deodorants contain aluminum chlorohydrate or aluminum zirconium? No." That's a bit suspicious, as I think people would really want to know "does it contain aluminum?" and the answer is likely "yes."
BTW, you wrote "Your sweat lessens" with this product, but it does not. The FAQ stresses that it does not reduce sweat. "Crystal is not an antiperspirant. It is a deodorant ... Deodorants are generally considered cosmetic product because they simply control odor."
> I think people would really want to know "does it contain aluminum?" and the answer is likely "yes."
The answer is absolutely yes. They admit that it contains an alum, but don't specify which one. The "it's all natural because it's a salt" angle is BS, because aluminum chlorohydrate is also a salt.
Though it's probably just 1 in a mixture of many salts.
Even if regular deodorant has this listed as an ingredient, it's quantity is questionable, and it's mixed in with other substances that prevent the alum from making full contact on the surface of the skin.
> Your sweat lessens" with this product, but it does not. The FAQ stresses that it does not reduce sweat.
It does a bit. But not to a significant effect. It's probably a secondary effect (clean pores, less sweat ... something like that).
I've got pretty sensitive skin and anti-persperant caused it to crack and even bleed. So I tried the rock salt/crystal kind of deodorant. My local supermarket carries it, should I ever run out, but I've had the same one for seven or eight years now. It works pretty well for me.
I also shave my underarms, which probably helps -- less surface area for bacteria to grow and sweat dries faster. If I'm wearing a tight shirt, I'll sometimes use baby powder in case I sweat, but in general it hasn't been a problem.
I bike to work occasionally, but usually change my shirt and wipe the sweat off with an alcohol wet-wipe. That helps as well.
Also, natural fibers are your friend! I will get stinky if I wear a polyester or rayon shirt all day, but that happens even if I wear normal deodorant.
"I also shave my underarms, which probably helps". Interestingly, the Wikipedia article on this topic claims "Underarm hair wicks the moisture away from the skin and aids in keeping the skin dry enough to prevent or diminish bacterial colonization. The hair is less susceptible to bacterial growth and therefore is ideal for preventing the bacterial odor."
Have you tried a mild skin antiseptic cream? I've used Savlon for this in the past (cetrimide & chlorhexidine gluconate are the active ingredients, in a white vanishing cream base). Doesn't block pores, but is effective at killing most of the bacteria and is soothing if you have aggravated the skin there somehow.
No references, but in my family's experiences, it never works for some and it works great for others, but only as long as you use it. The day you forget, the stink comes right back.
Sweat doesn't inherently smell. The foods you eat affect how you smell, though not specifically because of your sweat. If you eat a lot of spicy food then your whole body will be releasing those aromas.
Ditto. I have used "Crystal" off and on and my experience has been that it doesn't reduce odor or sweating nearly as well as something like Speed Stick.
Sure. You know that, I know that, and the manufacture of the product knows that. But "powertower" has alleged above that it does reduce sweating "as a secondary effect". By various vague and unlikely mechanisms.
Ah, I misread you; apologies. I'm sorry it doesn't work well for you. It's a godsend to me (sensitive to most other deodorants), but I do find that although it works for me, it doesn't last nearly as long. "all day", but just; if I have a long day I always wish I had a spare. The travel size ones are great though; and solid so you don't need to put them in the silly US "quart ziplock".
You have to apply it on clean/washed (after-shower) skin, not apply anything else, and use it consistently every day for a few weeks. It's also not an anti-perspirant. It just kills-off the bacteria. I suppose YMMV with how well it works for you, depending on what you're looking to get out of it, and how extensive the bacteria colonies are on the skin, and below the surface.
My experience with people who use these kinds of products is that they seem to have acclimated to their own odor. One can acclimate pretty quickly to nearly any odor no matter how foul, so it isn't all that surprising.
They still don't smell nice, but they don't seem to notice it.
That is the only deodorant I've ever encountered which can last me through 4 hours of chatting in a hot stuffy bar, which was truly a revelation to me, silly as that may sound. No association with the product other than as a customer.
The foundation to this is there is more profit to be made selling something magical with a big marketing budget, and therefore it's what gets mass exposure.
You can purchase a mineral salt-rock crystal (it's a smooth solid peace of salt, about as cheap as it gets) "de-odorant" that you wet and apply, it leaves nothing behind except an undetectable amount of salt on the skin. That is ... no chemicals, no fragrances, nothing but salt.
That salt kills-off the bacteria that are responsible for odor (through various means, directly and indirectly).
After a week or two of this, you're done. Your sweat lessens, and becomes clear and odorless.
No more deodorant is required after this. Just shower and apply some soap to your skin.
The bigger story here is that advertisers have convinced you that their more expensive "formulas" are required, and there are no good alternatives.
Their products are specifically designed not to kill-off the bacteria, and hence to keep you purchasing the product.
They do this because you can't make money selling a $1 peace of salt-rock that lasts the customer a life-time.